THE KUKMIN DAILY

Philip Yancey (photo), internationally acclaimed spiritual and evangelical Christian writer, will visit Korea next month to speak at the “Kukmin Daily 26th Anniversary Commemoration Conference,” to be held on October 9 at Ahyun Evangelical Holiness Church (Rev. Cho Won-geun) in Seodaemungu, Seoul. With his extraordinary parables and lively writing, he touches the fundamental Christian faith. He is straightforward and challenging in his treatment of human suffering, and uses a unique language not spoken by any previous theologian to explain about God’s grace. His great interest in the Korean church is leading him to this second visit to the country, followed by a visit in 2009. Following is the full text of Kukmin Daily’s September 19 email interview with Philip Yancey in the United States.





- Kukmin Daily (KD): Many Christians as well as secular persons are concerned about worrisome issues in the Korean church, ranging from ethical issues to scandalous behavior by church leaders. Some Christians now have begun calling themselves “Canaan Christian.” The three-syllable biblical word “Canaan” in reversed order means “I will not go” in Korean, and unfortunately, this is exactly how they define themselves: “Christians who do not attend church.” They are disappointed and, to some extent, even angry at the Korean church. What would you tell them?



First, I would say that what you are going through is perfectly normal. Look at the description of churches in the first few chapter of Revelation, or the churches that Paul wrote to in places like Corinth and Galatia. Churches are composed of flawed individuals, and it is an incredible honor, and also an incredible risk, that God has entrusted the likes of us with the message of the Good News.

Think about a parallel situation: the family. Korea has a great tradition of caring for family. Yet every family has eccentric members and irresponsible members. Do we cut off contact with families because of them? No, somehow we find room. Discouragement and anger are appropriate in view of some of the problems that you mention, so how do we respond?

There are times when you have to view the church almost as a missionary venture -not for something you take from, but something you give to. That’s an important kind of spiritual discipline, a step toward maturity. I agree that churches are full of problems, and it may be necessary for some to take a step back and have a “vacation” from church. In the end, though, such people often do not come back. A coal removed from the fire grows cold. I would prefer that mature Korean Christians stay in the churches and seek to bring reform and new life. Otherwise, the church will become an empty relic, much like the churches in Europe today.



- KD: The church is a community of people who make mistakes and fail to meet expectations. In spite of our obvious weaknesses, however, we need to endeavor faithfully, as you mentioned in your book. Today, what are the things for which the church must endeavor without ceasing?



I would hope that church leaders admit some of these problems openly, and repent of them. Being vulnerable is very hard for people in authority, and yet very powerful. From what I have seen, Korea has a tradition of strong leaders, sometimes even authoritarian, and I hope that those leaders begin to show some vulnerability.

When a person (or a church) gets too self-focused, it’s best to find outreach. The missionary movement that comes out of Korea may be the salvation of the church there. Wherever I go in the world I meet missionaries from Korea, and they are welcome in places Americans would not be welcome. This is a healthy sign, and I encourage the young people especially to go on short-term mission trips where they see God at work in dramatic ways. This encourages faith and brings new life back to the home churches.

What can you do “without ceasing”? Those very words bring up the act of prayer, of course. Koreans know how to pray. May you pray honestly and humbly to God, asking for a new vision for the future, and correction of past problems.



- KD: Korean society is in deep pain from last April’s ferry-sinking tragedy. After witnessing live on TV the images of the boat sinking, resulting in the loss of more than 300 persons, most of whom were students on a school trip, Korean Christians are struggling with their faith. Your recent book “Why? The Question Never Goes Away” provides enormous comfort and help to Korean readers. When the world asks why the almighty, good God would allow such a tragedy to happen, how should we answer?



I have been asked to speak to many people who have gone through great tragedy, such as the Mumbai bombings in India and mass shootings in the United States. This particular book addresses three of those places: Japan after the tsunami, Sarajevo after a brutal war, and Newtown, Connecticut, after the school shooting there.

An important starting point is to declare that God is on the side of the one suffering, not against the sufferer. We know this because God gave us a face, in Jesus, a face that is streaked with tears. If you want to know how God feels about the ferry disaster and the deaths of those children, just follow Jesus around and see how he responds, say, to a widow who has lost her only son. If we grieve over things that happen in this world, God grieves far more.

I’ve also learned that the church has unique words of comfort and hope. An atheist who sees the universe as a random, cold, pitiless place has no hope to offer. At such times of national crisis, people turn to faith because they want some assurance that life has meaning and that death is not permanent. Christianity is a resurrection faith. I could stand before the parents in Newtown and say that Jesus promised to prepare a place for us; their children are now in a safe place, in the loving arms of God. For a parent who just lost a six- or seven-year-old to a brutal murder, those words are like a lifeline.

Some of the questions, like the “Why?” question, we cannot answer. We investigate tragedies and often find human responsibility, such as with the ferry or the Malaysia Airlines plane shot down over Ukraine. I find it helpful not to torment ourselves over the Why? question but rather ask God somehow to use a tragedy to bring good out of it. I have seen that happen all over the world.



- KD: How do we continue to have hope in midst of these crises? What is the basis for us to say the church is still our hope?



In my experience, the church can be at its best in such a crisis. I wrote a book called "Where Is God When It Hurts?" and you can almost retitle that "Where Is the Church When It Hurts?" In so many places in the world -Iraq, Afghanistan, Africa- the church is on the front lines ministering to those who hurt. In Japan, Christian teams were rebuilding houses for the tsunami victims; in Sarajevo, Christians stayed behind during a four-year siege while many of their neighbors left; in Newtown, Connecticut, churches were offering counseling and establishing funds for future needs.

I don’t know how the church responded to the ferry crisis. I do know, though, that when a hurricane or storm hits my country, the church does respond with practical help. A year ago we had terrible floods in my state, Colorado. There are still teams of Mennonites and other church groups living here at their own expense to build houses.

Community is so important at such a time. A person who goes through surgery, for example, or treatment for cancer, needs others to lean on - to bring meals, to help with finances, to look after children or even pets. Studies consistently show that people closely connected with a church community recover faster and better after a health crisis.



- KD: In Korea, we encounter difficulties due to a lack of spiritual leaders, and to leaders’ unethical actions. How might the Korean church recover its spiritual leadership?



There are two possible approaches. The first tries to develop a new breed of leaders. It is commendable for the church to look more carefully at candidates and then to set in place ethical “fences” to prevent this type of abuse in the future. I’m sure you have people working on that already. But, of course, we’re always taken by surprise because other failures and lapses will occur. We’re dealing with flawed humans here, and you can’t find Superman leaders. Think of the twelve leaders that Jesus chose: one (Judas) betrayed him and another (Peter) denied he knew him.

The other approach concentrates more on building the church “from the bottom up.” This empowers ordinary Christians, through small groups, through training and biblical education. Contrary to what the media focuses on, a church’s strength depends less on its leaders than on the ordinary disciples of Jesus who are out in the world showing the world what it means to follow Jesus.

Really, I’m talking about the difference between the church "structure," the institutional church, and the church as a living organism. The life of a healthy church tends to come from the bottom up, with leaders simply steering the energy.

Perhaps I shouldn’t say this, but I’m also aware that the Korean church places impossible demands on its leaders. The workload of your pastors! Many have to prepare a talk or sermon every day of the week for the early morning prayer meetings, as well as all the work on weekends. I hope you learn to value the quiet, reflective time that spiritual leaders need. You can’t keep pumping a well dry. At some point the leader’s souls must be refilled.





- KD: We are aware that you grew up in a very fundamental, strict southern church. In your books, you also have said that religions based upon external components are easily forsaken. What do you think are the external components, the unimportant shell, of the Christian church? What do you consider to be the crux of our hypocritical actions that we should abandon?



Christians will always disagree over certain issues. Is it a sin to drink alcohol? What about tattoos? Historically, the church gravitates toward these issues-- after all, in Paul’s day controversy raged over eating meat offered to idols and celebrating pagan holidays. Jesus made clear, though, the danger of focusing on these peripheral issues. After all, Pharisees were the strictest group he encountered, and he reserved his strongest criticisms for them.

Jesus emphasized what comes from inside, from the heart, rather than the externals. We keep falling back on externals because they are easy to measure and then we can feel superior to others who don’t measure up, who aren’t as “spiritual” as we are. We miss the whole point. Love is the greatest commandment. The real question for a Christian is, How well are you loving - your family, your body of believers, the watching world, even your enemies?

I used to rebel against Christians who tried to impose their standards on me, for instance in the 1960s making hair length a big issue. I’m much more relaxed about such things now. I respect Christians who try to be very strict, as long as they don’t judge their spirituality by such externals and as long as they don’t use that strictness as a kind of pride, looking down on other believers. When that happens, they should go back and read Jesus’ harsh words about the Pharisees (in Matthew 23 and Luke 11, for instance).



- KD: Koreans in general, as well as Korean Christians, are divided into liberals and conservatives by their ideologies. How does the divided church community overcome the differences and become united?



John’s gospel tells us that Jesus came full of grace and truth. Churches work very hard to make sure they have the most truth. That’s why there are so many denominations: each one thinks they have the most truth.

I simply ask that churches compete just as much to be a “grace church,” which means reaching out to the undesirables, the outcasts, the truly needy. I find that when you’re out in the midst of the world, with your hands dirty, ideologies don’t matter so much. Jesus managed to attract the least desirable elements of society even while not compromising on his standards of truth.

We need to remind ourselves who the real “opponent” is. It’s not other denominations, other Christians. It is the force of evil in this world that expresses itself in poverty, injustice, sexual trafficking, violence, despair. Remember Jesus’ very first sermon in Luke 4, and the mission he adopted. All churches can join hands to fight those opponents, and in doing so our differences will shrink in significance.



- KD: Does the size of churches matter? Korea has many mega churches with more than ten thousand members, yet 60 to 70 percent of the Korean churches have fewer than 100 members. Some of our church leaders say that the churches have different roles according to their sizes. What would be Jesus’ ideal church size? What are the key elements that churches must have?



I don’t believe there is one right answer to this question. People will make their own choices. Large churches have the advantage of quality control: they have the resources to build attractive buildings and to hire excellent musicians and skilled pastors. Furthermore, they can make a huge difference in the community. Smaller churches have the advantage of a group of diverse people you can come to know, a kind of extended family who will be more aware of your needs and perhaps more supportive.

I attended a church with two thousand members that had great music and excellent preaching. After a number of sad experiences, the church shrank to about 160 members. (I joke that we’re into church growth - we help other churches grow!) We lost our building and now meet in a school cafeteria. Yet we care for each other and cling together in a much healthier way now. We know each other’s needs - problems with children, several people with cancer, kids on a mission trip - in a different way.

Key elements? I identify three. Diversity: church offers one of the few places where different ages, ethnicities, and social classes can come together. Unity: all these differences come together in our commitment to Jesus and what he asks of us. Finally, Mission: we unite together in common cause to show the world a different way to live.



- KD: Many spiritual leaders all over the world pick materialism and humanism as the biggest challenges that the churches face today. Others say that they are threatened by different religions and cults. From your point of view, what is the biggest challenge and obstacle for the church today?



The biggest challenge is that we forget why we exist. As I visit churches around the world, I see some in a kind of “honeymoon” phase, when the gospel is alive and truly changing lives. After a while, the church becomes a kind of self-perpetuating institution, something like Samsung or Coca Cola. We hire professionals to do the work, build large buildings, and keep doing the same thing.

God’s Spirit doesn’t like to be contained. The Spirit moves like the wind, Jesus said; you never know which way it will blow. Leaders should be like weather forecasters, listening and testing the wind. Where is God moving? How should we respond? What should be our role, our calling?



- KD: Churches here in Korea have a tendency to imitate and follow churches in the United States, but churches in the States as well have to deal with ethical problems. You once worked as an editor of “Christianity Today.” What can Korean churches learn from those in the U.S?



On this trip, I’d rather attend to what American churches can learn from Korea! It’s so easy for me to point out flaws in the U.S. church: its complacency, self-indulgence, etc. We do have strengths, for sure. We have a very strong infrastructure of education and mercy ministries and a great tradition of missionary outreach. Our problem is that the outside culture keeps leaking in and affecting us. Christians hop from one church to another based on which is most entertaining. We become the self-perpetuating institutions I just mentioned.

How does one keep a revival going? How do you keep life going? As I look at history, the church goes in cycles. I know you in Korea are concerned about those cycles. You’ve lived through explosive growth in the church; now it’s slowing down, growing grayer, solidifying.

The encouraging thing, as I look at the U.S., is that trends seem to appear out of nowhere (the Spirit wind again). The Jesus movement, the charismatic movement, the small group movement, praise music, the emergent church - no one predicts these things, they just happen. Leaders have the responsibility to test them, to encourage worthy ones and discourage unhealthy ones. Tough job, I know.



- KD: We know that you are quite interested in the Korean churches. We heard that during your visit you intend to stop by Global Sarang (love) Sharing to learn about its “Baby Box” ministry. (Click HERE to see more.) Why are you interested in that particular church community?



Earlier I described our mission as developing pioneer settlements that show the world a different way to live. The Baby Drop Box ministry is a beautiful example. Some Christians respond to the abortion issue by picketing, lobbying the government, shouting at demonstrations. Here’s a pastor who responds by finding a creative way to welcome the unwelcomed, love the unloved. Over time, just as happened with the early Christians, the watching world will think, “That pastor has something I don’t have. I want what he’s got.” And the gospel spreads.



- KD: During our conference this time, you will speak also in one of the writing sessions. How would you say the faith and writing are related?



Christians have always been known as “people of the book,” and the Reformation took off at the exact time as the invention of the printing press. I think there is a very close connection between faith and writing. I don’t know a more intimate, less threatening form of communication. When I pick up a book, I the reader am in control; if I don’t like it, I shut the book. Thus the writer has to have a kind of power that keeps me going, yet a non-coercive power. Always the reader is in control.

It is no accident that God revealed himself most intimately as the Word, as John says. God allowed no graven images, no overwhelming, scary likenesses. God came to earth in that intimate, non-threatening form. What a beautiful image for those of us who follow Jesus. We don’t need to overwhelm, to dazzle an audience. We can express our faith in the humble yet powerful form of words.



Interviewed by reporter Sangmok Shin (smshin@kmib.co.kr)


Click here for the original article in Korean

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